Welcome to the On Air with Molly Dare podcast, where your host, Molly Dare, will be sharing stories of strength and encouragement to empower others to live their best lives. In this opening episode, Sarah Edmondson joins the show to share how she found the courage to break free from her involvement with NXIVM.
Listen in as Sarah explains her journey into joining the group, which eventuality ended up being her source of income and her entire social network. You will learn what made the cult leader so alluring, details about her eventual escape and raising her family while going through such trauma. Sarah is an inspiring woman with an incredible story that is not to be missed.
Listen to the Full Episode:
What You’ll Learn:
The warning signs Sarah experienced while involved with NXIVM.
What made the cult leader so alluring.
Where the term “gaslighting” came from.
Why Sarah decided to come out about the cult publicly.
How she has managed raising a family while going through such a traumatic event.
The signs of being with a narcissist.
Why so many people were scared to leave the cult.
Ideas Worth Sharing:
“No one joins a cult thinking they are joining a cult.” - Molly Dare
“I know who I am, and I know what I am made of.” - Sarah Edmondson
“When you’re in trauma—when you are in the darkest of the dark—it is really hard to see the light. The best part is now I get to be the light for other people.” - Sarah Edmondson
Resources:
EPISODE 01
SARAH EDMONDSON
TRANSCRIPT:
*Please note that transcripts are auto-transcribed, they are for reference only and may contain typos*
Molly Dare 0:06
Hello and welcome to the On Air with Molly Dare podcast series. I'm your host Molly Dare, founder of hillenBRAND Media single mother of two and deeply passionate about sharing stories of strength and encouragement in the hopes of inspiring and empowering others to live their best lives. On today's episode, we have Sarah Edmondson, Canadian actress and playwright starring in a CBS series Salvation, more than 12 films for Hallmark Channel and lifetime and voiceover artists. More recently, well known for her featured role in the HBO docu series The Vow, detailing her 12 year tenure enrolling over 2000 people into the cult we now know as NXIVM. Last year Sarah published Scarred: the true story of how I escaped from NXIVM the cult that bound my life. Sarah, welcome, and thank you so much for for joining and sharing your story with us today.
Sarah Edmondson 0:55
Thank you for having me.
Molly Dare 0:57
I was so blown away. I think it was two months ago when I watched the docu series, not only of what happened, but also your strength and and courage, which really touched me on many levels. And before we go into your story, mother to mother, how has it been balancing all of this and raising two young children? How are you?
Sarah Edmondson 1:20
Thank you for starting with that. I'm gonna cry. I'm okay. You know, it's it's definitely, that's a really hard thing is trying to figure out the balance because my kids are my priority. And if to find ways of like doing all of this when you know, my eldest is at school, and right now my youngest is with a very part time nanny. So I can have some quiet here. But this is still like this isn't over yet. For me, people still want to talk, I still have more to say not everybody's been sentenced, everyone thinks sort of over because I used to say k or k are like trying to say his name at my house because he doesn't deserve that. He's been sentenced, that it would be over for me, but it's kind of not. And I'm exhausted, to be totally honest, mother to Mother, I'm really tired. And I have to like find ways of keeping my energy up in a healthy way and meditating and yoga and eating healthy, but I'm exhausted. But I'm also like, it's outweighed by the the rush and the energy that I get from, you know, meeting people like you who reached out because he resonated and, and want to talk more, and it's been helpful, and that blows me away. Like when we decided to go public, we just had no idea how this would affect people. It was just like, the first intention was, you know, take them, the group, expose, everybody exposes for what it is. And then with The Vow, the next wave of response in terms of people being, you know, moved or educated or what, whether they're in a group like this or not, is a huge amount of education and people wanting to connect about that. And I love connection with people. I love helping people. So it's just like, okay, it's not what I planned. But it's what's happening.
Molly Dare 2:57
And that is my hope that the people who are listening today, if they recognize that they are in a situation like this, maybe not as extreme, but maybe it's something in their personal life or in their work life, that they recognize the signals and and figure out a way to get out themselves. You know, there's many ways we can start this journey of explaining everything that happened. But for those who have not watched the documentary, the vow, could you kind of explain what NXIVM is was in what you thought you were getting involved in?
Sarah Edmondson 3:25
Sure. Yeah, I've learned to like hone this with my elevator pitch was, you know, or to explain what happened few people haven't seen The Vow these days, it seems to have gone part of the zeitgeist. But you know, I say I was part of a group I thought it was a personal and professional development group or community of people like minded, who wanted to evolve themselves, build a self awareness, help others do the same change the world very idealistic vision for what was possible. And that's we thought it was
Molly Dare 3:51
Sure, and who doesn't want to get involved in something like that and doing something to help themselves help humanity? Everyone who I think there was a line in the documentary that says nobody joins a cult, no one joins a cult people want to be around especially nowadays, it's so popular to join these self help groups. You know, Tony Robbins makes a huge living at this. And you know, it is contagious when you're around that energy and people who are there for for the right reasons. And a lot of people do it just for the networking aspect of it and meeting like minded people, and who was it that introduced you? What were you doing at the time, where were you kind of in your life?
Sarah Edmondson 4:29
So I was an actor living in a basement suite struggling and feeling like the I mean, I was working technically, it wasn't totally out of work, but I wasn't feeling fulfilled, fulfilled and that I felt like there was more for me in life more purpose, looking for meaning, looking for deeper connection, deeper community. And I met a filmmaker at a film festival and somebody I really liked and respected he'd made What the Bleep do we know which was a film that kind of triggered my spiritual journey. And I just said to him, whatever you're doing Next, I want to be a part of it. I want to make I want to make media that shifts consciousness. Cut to 12 years later.
Molly Dare 5:04
Not in the way you thought you did. But um
Sarah Edmondson 5:06
I make a goal, I stick to it.
Molly Dare 5:10
You did. You made impactful television? That's for sure. So when you were intrigued by this, this concept in this group, what were the first few days like?
Sarah Edmondson 5:21
Well, and you know that I go into more detail on this in the book, but truthfully, I was very skeptical. I had a lot of red flags, I was very turned off by a lot of things. I, you know, try not to live in the woulda, shoulda, coulda, woulda, you know, wishing that I made better decisions. But those are moments I look back on a guy like my gut was saying, Get out because it was so uncomfortable. But I'd made the agreement at the beginning of the class, that if we felt uncomfortable, it meant that we were bringing stuff up that we need to work on. Like, if we're uncomfortable talking about something in a class, obviously, that's gonna affect you in your life, why not work on it hear the low low price of $2000. So I, you know, I made that commitment. And what I didn't realize is that I was, I had been trained from day one to override my gut instinct to override my internal barometer of like, something's not right here, which I think is like one of the most dangerous things that KR did.
Molly Dare 6:14
Right? And now looking back, they do that in the first day, because I'm sure a lot of people come in kind of what is this? And I'm sure a lot of people can resonate, who are who are listening situations that they've been involved in, where you definitely have the red flags in the beginning, but but either the people inside are so convincing, and so passionate about it, that you want to just give it a shot and then buy in a few days, or, you know, you're already hooked, you're already kind of in there. And they they bank on that.
Sarah Edmondson 6:40
Yes, for sure. A part of it was giving it a shot. Part of it was not getting being get my money back. Part of it was that Mark, the one who had enrolled me who I really trusted, said and with good intentions, I have no blame for him in any way whatsoever. Because I know that he thought it was good, too. But he said wait till day three. And he was right, day three by that third day, I was hooked. I felt like I had a huge shift, the shifts kept coming. I saw the world by the day. By day five, I was like, oh, like this veil been lifted, everything seemed clear. I saw human dynamics for what they were like it was communicating better. I just felt like so on fire and connected to my life. And my purpose. I was like, This is amazing. I want everyone to have this. Like I talked about that in The Vow.
Molly Dare 7:19
Mmm hmm. What is so interesting is it almost becomes addictive to get that hierarchy within the company to reach the next level. The next level, the next level, which you did and excelled at to the top level, you recruited over 2000 people into this with good intentions.
Sarah Edmondson 7:36
I want to clarify this because I get a little even though it does say my bio, but I personally brought in like about 100 or so people are brought in, you know, sure mad, right. So I don't some of those people, I don't even know, sure. But I felt responsible for them. And in fact, in the structure of the company that was called my organization I was I was meant to help them grow and Shepherd them along and check in on them and coach them, which is what I did for many years. I was I was basically, you know, executive coach for a lot of people.
Molly Dare 8:03
And what's so interesting about it, and you know, I hate to compare it to Scientology is like that there are there are a lot of actors and public figures that are really attracted to this and involved in this. And why do you think that is?
Sarah Edmondson 8:16
Well, I can't speak for everybody. But I will say for myself that acting is a very nebulous field where you can work and work and work and train and train and train and then not get the job, you don't necessarily get the result you're looking for. And with the straight path, what we thought was this karate style measurable ranking system, like, you know, in the, in the military, or whatever, or karate, is that you could do x and get a result. And I really liked that. And I felt really good. It was a really strong self esteem boost for me, because acting is not like that. And that's why I think so many actors are drawn to it partly because of that. And I think also because there was this whole emotional side that they trained us and it was like an emotional training that I felt suddenly, like I had this bandwidth of my emotions that I could tap into and connect with and have more control over like a, you know, a pianist and the piano that I could do this and generate certain emotions. I think that actors like that. And then also there was a business structure to it, like a lot of actors are very talented, but they lock follow through, or they are they procrastinate, are they, whatever has certain emotional blocks, and this program was designed to remove those emotional blocks you can get from point A to point B. Hmm, I think that's why I was a good enroller. And we use that word, not recruiter, but same thing. Because I could say, hey, this was my life. And this is what it was like, and this is what it's like now, because of the tools. And no, that was true for me. So it was very easy for me to just be like, yeah, this is amazing. It's totally worth $3,000.
Molly Dare 9:41
So you've stayed at for 12 years, and many people have been there for that long and longer, longer. Yeah. And you know, what people I want people to understand is that it's a very slow process of getting to the point you just don't wake up one day and say, hey, I want to be in your inner circle and brand B and all of that. It's a step by step approach and also every level that you reach to, you almost become more committed. And there's more to lose the higher up that you that you go within. It's not certainly anything that happens overnight. And I'm sure a lot of people are kind of weeded out as who's going to come in that inner circle? And who's going to be, you know, weeded out. And so this organization is headed by this man named Keith, how would you describe him now, but when you first met him first impression of him? What was so alluring about him?
Sarah Edmondson 10:32
Well, actually, I would say that, and I did talk about this in the book too, that I was pretty underwhelmed by him when I first met him, like I thought it was schlubby. And not like that impressive. But I but I respected his mind. Like, I just thought he was a big nerd. You know, I thought, well, look how incredible that he is one of the smartest men in the world not true, and put it all his energy into building this curriculum. And I respected that I was I respected that he had created this thing that I found so helpful, but I was underwhelmed by him as a person. But I think that what's alluring is, and he became more so I think over the years like he'd really mastered the outward impression of somebody who is humanitarian who's compassionate. I know that a lot of people have talked about this, although I didn't, I didn't get that close to him, thank God. But I know that when I did talk to him, one on one and rarely alone, again, thank God, but I felt very much that he was you so present, like he was like, you're the only one that matters. And this is I've since learned about spiritual narcissist is that they, you know, connected? You said I could swear, right?
Molly Dare 11:33
Yes, absolutely.
Sarah Edmondson 11:37
For me, apparently, I swear a lot in The Vow. So they just summed it up in a mug for me. They learned that they like they eye fuck you. And that you see that in the scene in The Vow when he meets Allison. And he's like, staring into her soul in the most uncomfortable way. And I think that people who are susceptible to that, like the people who did become part of his inner circle, and like really inner circle, maybe were looking for a father figure or you know, felt like like if they had issues of being special or not getting enough attention. And here's the person is being like you're the one and all of these women thought that I mean, some towards the end, they apparently the inner circle knew about the other women I know we're getting into like the polyamorous stuff that got found out later. But that was something that they all felt is that they were special to him in a very unique way.
Molly Dare 12:25
And that's what's so interesting about the narcissistic personality is that they are so good at making the people that they are speaking to feel like they are the only one that they are finally being seen to their depth gets you to open up and be vulnerable. And then that's used against you that's kind of down the road. And it's almost like they're well trained in the art of doing that, that everyone feels like they are the special the chosen one. And that's intoxicating, because for a lot of people, it's the first time in their life they've ever felt seen.
Sarah Edmondson 12:54
Yes, yeah, 100%. And that for a lot of people, it's the first time for a lot of things like if they've never done any personal development before. Like the five day for someone who's never done any introspection would be mind blowing for people, because he basically combined all of these different modalities, like it's nothing new. For someone who's to if you I know you're pretty self aware person, you've done a lot of work on yourself, you definitely would have got stuff out of it, for sure. But like for someone who never done anything they'd like, it's just a complete overhaul of everything in their life. Short money, self esteem, everything.
Absolutely. And I think you know, so many people are so caught up in the fleeting happiness of material things, which is how we're taught, you know, this past decade, we value people who have money and things and all that and we think that's what's gonna make us happy. And then when you start feeling the emotions of self discovery, and all of that, and the happiness that you get with that, that's very intoxicating. It's a deeper level of happiness and excitement and a natural high versus like a fake high of the material stuff. Look what I just bought myself
Actually just interrupt for a second in NXIVM, they call that the joy path versus the happy path.
Molly Dare 13:56
Okay
Sarah Edmondson 13:57
Yeah. And all that materialism is keeps you away from pure joy.
Molly Dare 14:01
Right.
Sarah Edmondson 14:02
And there's truth and there's truth in that. there is.
Molly Dare 14:04
and that but that's the tricky part in this is that the front of it all right, is causing positive shifts in people there was good being done, you wouldn't have stayed there as long as you did if that was not so much good being done and elevating people. And I think that's anyone who entered that is their hope of it, you know, they're not going in, you know, to be on the other side. So for anyone who finds themselves dealing with a narcissist, whether it's in a personal relationship at work, what are some warning signs that that you experienced or that you know, now going through all of this, would you say?
Sarah Edmondson 14:41
I mean, in a group or even with a person if there's somebody who's just like, the man or like the woman women can be a narcissist absolutely is there just tends to be a trend right now and these male Narcissistic leaders, but like if they're not accountable to anybody, you know that there's no one there's no checks and balances, especially in a group like I was in Everyone's referred to him as almost like a godlike status. And if you question that, you were in trouble and in a tacit way, not like being spanked, like, well, that came later we found out but right, right? It was bookmarked for later. But like, yeah, you'd get you, you know, you wouldn't get promoted, you'd be shunned. You'd be cut off from certain things, you'd get things taken away from you, you'd be shamed. So that's, that's a really strong telltale sign, I think also being gaslit. And that will look like if you you know, you bring something up that's not working or that you're not comfortable with, it's always brought back in turn into your faces your issue, your problem you look at our context is like, wow, you seem really upset about that, Sarah, I think you need to go get an EM. You need to you need to go talk to your coach about that and work through whatever your thing is. But it's the same thing with the narcissist, if you bring something up in a relationship, or to a boss or family member, whatever. And they say, Well, you did it at it up, or you know, well, of course, that you think that because you're a bubble like that, if you put it back on you. That's gaslighting, and that's one of the things that's what a type of gaslighting
Molly Dare 16:01
Yeah, another thing that I've noticed in in really narcissistic relationships is the need to isolate the person to sometimes to try to get them to not speak to others, or that may see something different than than what they're trying to. Yes.
Sarah Edmondson 16:15
And also, if the narcissist has what we call flying monkeys, are you familiar with that term? So have you seen Wizard of Oz? Yes. You know, how the Wicked Witch had these flying monkeys?
Molly Dare 16:24
Yeah.
Sarah Edmondson 16:25
So so the narcissist often doesn't do a lot of the dirty work. They send people out to do it for them.
Molly Dare 16:30
Absolutely.
Sarah Edmondson 16:31
Yes. So they're like, their hands are clean, but like they didn't, but other people are giving you like, even the way KR got his women, he didn't necessarily approach them. He had the women around him, like, his inner circle will say to me, oh, you're in town, when you ask Keith to go for a walk with you. Like, why do I need to go for a walk with Keith? Okay, it's like, I have nothing to ask him. You know, right? Like, oh, you're in you're like, what are they say? Are you coming to volleyball? I said, No, why am I going I'm here to for eight days and paying $10,000 for a training. I can't go to volleyball. And stay up to two, three in the morning. Oh, you're more attached to your comfort than you are your growth. You might want to look at that.
Molly Dare 17:05
Wow.
So a) they're gaslighting me b) they're doing his dirty work.
Yeah
Sarah Edmondson 17:09
try to get me to so and Keith was good at that. He always made it look like the women were coming on to him.
Molly Dare 17:14
Hmm.
Sarah Edmondson 17:15
Right.
Molly Dare 17:16
Very manipulative
Sarah Edmondson 17:17
Manipulation Station.
Molly Dare 17:19
Yeah. And what was interesting, which I can remember this was in the book or in the documentary, but you said that when you started seeing the red flags, and and you started voicing them within the organization, it was kind of turned around back on you.
Sarah Edmondson 17:32
Yeah. Always.
Molly Dare 17:34
Could you give kind of an example of how that works, because people want to get to the point where you actually want to voice it, which is a very tough thing to do. And I'm sure there are only a select group of people that you could even go to with a complaint. And what would happen when you did
Sarah Edmondson 17:47
well, not Not only that, but they were my friends. They were above me in rank, but they were my friends. And we were this like elite team and the top rank, like I got to green, there was only one blue above me and two purples and they passed away, which is a whole separate story. And then there Keith and Nancy. So I said his name, he shall not be named. So so I was part of the greens. But in the green rank, I was a lower ranking green or stripes within green. Like this matters. But anyway, the first time I actually saw something that was really, I had a real problem with I brought it up at our green meeting. And I just got pounced on that I was being controlling that I was being I was my fear was coming up and I and basically it was a discrepancy I saw in the straight path, which is very measurable and very, like specific and they were basically changing it for a specific thing. They said that Keith could just do that. And I said, What like that, what the whole point of it is as measurable and quantifiable. And so you can't just like give it like there's no nepotism, there's no room for nepotism in this straight path. But basically, there was nepotism. And they just jumped on me and was said I was being anti attribute they said as being suppressive, which is basically like the worst that you could be called in the company. I couldn't recommend fact I think that was the one of the first breaking points of like, the my foundation and my trust in the company was crumbling. But I didn't recognize that till later. Because I just didn't make sense to me, I was so angry, but then my anger was used against me. And that is one of the things that they did that so so bad is the very first day the first class, they teach you that you're responsible for your own emotions, which is true, and that you caused your own emotions, which is true. And that gave me a like a real potency and a real power. And I think a lot of people enjoyed that concept of being at cause they know they talk about that in The Vow as well. But the negative part about it is if you have a reaction to something that's not right, that is not just it protects the leader from being accountable, accountable, because you're saying is that that my reaction is just my own issue versus know what you're doing isn't right. Well, yeah,
Molly Dare 19:48
let's move forward to discussing about Albany and what was going on there and when you kind of figure out what was going on.
Sarah Edmondson 19:56
Yeah. So I mean, there's so many details, but I mean, essentially, Lauren, my best friend, maid of honor invited me to this secret society, which, truthfully, like, there's so many things to explain how that happened. I would say, let's say read the book, watch The Vow. Yeah, I can't even get into it anymore because it's so
Molly Dare 20:16
it's completely fair. And for those of you have not read the book, it is the opening chapter. And you really think, like, walk it through the details of it and the emotion of it. I mean, you feel like you're there with you. And it's, it's really jarring. definitely get the book and read it, because it is just incredible what they had, you know, everybody do. But that being said, You recently got the brand removed. Yeah. And how did that feel? And how does that feel?
Sarah Edmondson 20:44
That feels really good. It's actually just over a year ago, and I found an amazing surgeon who, you know, like the brand was about this big and she just cut like an eye around it and then closed it. So I just have like a one line. That's a very faint line, almost like a Caesarean scar. very faint, it's in my underwear line, you'd never see it. I'm still working on getting rid of that. So it just be like you know, clean slate but always have a little reminder there which I'm okay with because it's sort of a symbol to me of what I've been through and my strength and my personal life.
Molly Dare 21:12
So all this happened and and the branding and all of this and you knew that these red flags, were all adding up to something and you needed to get out. Were you worried about a) telling the truth and the impact that would have on all your relationships? Because really, at this point, these were your best friends and and a huge part of your life? Were you worried in deciding to come out with it so publicly how that would affect not only your relationships with everybody, but also your career?
Sarah Edmondson 21:42
Yeah, it definitely. There's a lot of fears I had, I thought this, you know, I'll never I might never work again, my family and friends. Like I have a lot of family and friends who knew I was part of this group. And some people thought that it was sort of weird and culty. And other people were really supportive of me, because I seemed really happy. And I'm living this great life.
Molly Dare 22:00
Did t hey ever say anything to you?
Sarah Edmondson 22:02
During? No, ever? Nobody ever did an intervention, like a proper intervention with me, but you would make jokes about like, you know, oh, Sarah, and her cult kind of thing, you know, and in a jokey way. And I would joke back, I'm like, yeah, I'm in a cult and in a cult of really happy, awesome, successful people. And I and I really thought that, like, they taught us that people are going to call us a cult. And and the answer is, well, what's the bad thing cults do bad things? What's the bad thing that we're doing? We're helping people grow, right, like, and I couldn't see the bad thing. But sure, then I saw the bad thing.
Molly Dare 22:34
Right
Sarah Edmondson 22:35
I saw the bad thing. I mean, really, the choice to go public? It didn't take me long to decide. I mean, it was. Maybe
Molly Dare 22:42
once you got the facts, you knew what you had to do?
Sarah Edmondson 22:44
Yes. I mean, as soon as I got the facts as soon as I pieced it all together, who Keith really was a sociopath that sex was involved, because that was kept from me. Right? And as soon as I saw that bigger picture, I mean, it just flipped within seconds. And I was I knew that I was out, then the question was, how do we get out? And do we get out and bring people with us? Do we get people out? And like, it wasn't like, oh, we're getting out. We're gonna destroy this fucking thing, right? Oh, it was it happens in stages. And the first thought was, we just got to get out. And then it was like, Oh, my God, man. So many of my good friends are here. And I realized that a lot of the women were slaves. Hmm, had bad given collateral, and way worse collateral than me, like close ups of their most intimate parts, right?
Molly Dare 23:24
Right
Sarah Edmondson 23:25
Close ups.
Molly Dare 23:25
So they're afraid to leave because they're afraid of the ramifications and the embarrassment of what's going to be held against you.
Sarah Edmondson 23:30
Yes, and not all of those women. But some of those women were there because of me, and I felt responsible for them. And I felt like, I can just leave, I can't just leave and know what I'm leaving behind. But at that point, like my close friends, like Lauren, and the women who I realized were part of the inner circle and the top line of this group, I realized that they'd been lying to me. So at that point, like the betrayal was so intense, I didn't care about losing. I mean, it was sad to lose their friendships, I still feel that loss. But at that point, it was like, that doesn't matter, compared to what I know, I need to do, but I don't what I really didn't take into account is how it affects like, I have neighbors who have no idea what to do. Just think I'm an actor, you know. And now now I'm going into like, sex cult whistleblower, right? Like, I mean, the looks I get, like, if people know me well enough to be like, I saw The Vow and like, good for you, or, but most of the time, it's just like, avert eyes. And sometimes people outwardly be like, Hey, I don't know you, but like, congratulations, and I'm really inspired does happen like 10 times, since The Vow came out
Molly Dare 24:28
I was gonna say, there's also so many of us who look at you as the beacon of courage and strength. And so I really want to drive that home for you that you have inspired so many people. I mean, even people that I talk, you know about it, have you seen the docu series, The Vow and like, Oh, my gosh, people have resonated, you know, from stuff from 20 years ago, 10 years ago, stuff that they were involved in now make sense to them. They couldn't ever understand what was really happening or why they felt this way or was really the reality of it. And now they're like, that's what it was. And I'm not crazy. Speaking of which we'll, we'll get to that. But the good news is Keith was sentenced. Yeah. And where were you when you found that out? And how did that feel? And does that feel?
Sarah Edmondson 25:10
I mean, I was actually sitting right where I'm sitting right now, because I was being interviewed for season two of The Vow. Okay. Oh, wow, we're over here. And I think God This was this day was such a blur. I and I had the chance.
Molly Dare 25:23
I think I saw you want to live with somebody?
Sarah Edmondson 25:26
Whitney Cummings.
Molly Dare 25:27
Yes.
Sarah Edmondson 25:27
Yes. Yeah.
Molly Dare 25:28
And you were literally like, speechless. It was like such you could see the overwhelming you know, emotion of that moment.
Sarah Edmondson 25:35
Shocked. Yeah. Oh, shocked. Because I felt like, you know, we had assumed he was going to get life in prison, but 120 years just felt like, because even with life you could get out earlier.
Molly Dare 25:45
Sure. Sure.
Sarah Edmondson 25:46
120 years he's guaranteed to stay in there. And that is just such a sense of relief. And I just linked to something you asked me earlier like, What are the signs that you're with a narcissist is that you do feel crazy? Did you start to question your own sanity,
Molly Dare 26:00
everything
Sarah Edmondson 26:01
Do you know where the term gaslighting comes from? No. Okay, so let me tell you this, and I might butcher it a little bit, but there was apparently a play I'm thinking like in the 30s or something where there was a Keith type sociopathic character, this husband and wife and he wants to make the wife feel crazy before there's electricity. And so he turned down the gas to the to the gas lights, right? And would read a book it was too dark for her to read. And he would say what you can't, I can read. So she felt like something was wrong with her. So yeah, so that's that that's the nature of it. So if you feel
Molly Dare 26:30
I did not know that
Sarah Edmondson 26:31
yeah, yeah. So that's the nature of gaslighting. And that is I think the thing that most be like you said, people are watching this or reading and going. That's what was happening to me because gaslighting is a very common term now, right? And sociopathic, narcissistic douchebags are being called out around the world,
Molly Dare 26:46
thank goodness.
Sarah Edmondson 26:48
There's a trend in exposing this behavior, which is just so obviously disgusting and needs to be exposed. But a lot of people in the past didn't have that. And so they're coming to terms with tha now,
Molly Dare 26:59
I kind of liken it to the the Me Too movement. Yes. And all of that. And it's, you know, there's so many people that they me too I experienced that I, you know, I no longer crazy. I couldn't piece it together. And what were the charges that he was sentenced for?
Sarah Edmondson 27:14
Oh, gosh, I should have this memorized.
Molly Dare 27:16
I should have written that down myself.
Sarah Edmondson 27:18
There were seven. I could look it up. But sex trafficking, forced labor. God, I'm so bad at these.
Molly Dare 27:24
There's a whole bunch of things that go
Sarah Edmondson 27:26
seven, seven things, and he's been convicted
Molly Dare 27:29
Yeah,
Sarah Edmondson 27:29
yep. And all friends took four hours to convict after six weeks your trial which by the way, the loyalists so the people who still stand by Keith, because he's just a misunderstood
Molly Dare 27:38
which blows my mind.
Sarah Edmondson 27:40
I know. That's just as honestly it's so sad. Like, I used to be really pissed at them and just being like, I got them out of the shakeout with my app. It's over. But now I'm like, Oh, my God, it was sad like that. This is their lives. They're still out there defending him. I tried to prove that the prosecution was corrupt. Like they're gaslighting, the, the American judicial system, saying that their process is flawed. That's gaslighting. Your process. No process works actually worked really well and only took four hours and like, well, they didn't deliver it long enough. Like they didn't need to because it was so obvious. so obvious to the world. They can't see it.
Molly Dare 28:13
Absolutely. And you even spoke with the FBI. I can't even imagine what that was like.
Sarah Edmondson 28:18
Oh, it was so wild and weird and not as glamorous as it looks like. It was really not what it was in the movies for sure. No, but I will tell you that the female prosecution, Tanya and Mara, and it is a whole team of people. But what did blow my mind is how determined these two were and they have a team of a whole bunch of other people that I don't remember everyone's names but there's like these two Mikes and this guy named Charlie and and Tanya Anwar and they just sat at this table and asked everything I gave them ever give them my computer and my phone. I'm like, just take it and they like mirrored everything like I don't know what's in there. But like, hopefully something is useful for you guys. And I ended up not having to testify thank goodness because I think at the trial, can you imagine me now I get my try to nurse in the courtroom and try to testify against Keith but I would I wouldn't have been a good witness I'd done too much press. I didn't they didn't need me in the end, I believe because I was testifying against Lauren. I didn't have the first hand against Keith so and Lauren turned like Lauren testified herself against Keith everything I would have been saying about Lauren, she said her herself. So it was great.
Molly Dare 29:22
And I think that is so powerful that the feeling of vindication that that you were right because I know a lot of people they know what's going on whatever but they I forget the term of its whitewash but they it's almost like they talk themselves out of it or like oh wait, maybe it wasn't that way and I'm second guessing myself. So I can imagine him being sentenced and convicted was tremendous relief and vindication and validation of what you guys have been through.
Sarah Edmondson 29:46
Absolutely. I'll say something real quick is that I felt like not so much now but even in the first year getting out and I did this podcast. I don't know if you heard it with Josh block on the CBC and scaping NXIVM was the first thing I'd I would have done Then it was very, I even said to him, I think this is in there. I said, Josh was his childhood friend of mine. Like, this is bad, right like it because it's a trigger system that Keith put in there for us to, to, to say what what's bad about it exactly. And that that's how I knew when people tried to reach out to me who were still in. So what's bad about it exactly Sarah, like women chose to do this and people in fraternities choose to get branded. Why is this? Like, I didn't choose this. I never would have wanted to keep the initials on my body. But this but what's bad about that? And they could in that that's, that's also gaslighting, but I did it with doing it to myself going, is this bad? Like, am I? Am I missing like the most noble man's humanitarian approach? Maybe it's controversial and like, I just, I just don't get it. Am I missing something like, that's the kind of and Josh had to be like, no, it is bad. Because if a woman group of women decide to do this on their own, without collateral, and without some man overseeing it, and secret, it'd be a whole different thing.
Molly Dare 30:58
Absolutely. And I'm sure everyone's been conditioned for a decade plus to protect him. Yeah. And and that's still probably a part, it's hard to let go that protective nature. You know, it's it's hard to undo habits, just like that.
Sarah Edmondson 31:10
Those five loyalists actually have said that publicly that the lies that they did that they told, in other words, to protect Keith, that he was in charge of this thing that was to protect him. So it's an ethical lie.
Molly Dare 31:21
Right. So difficult. So you know, for people who who are recognizing themselves in a similar situation, maybe not as severe? Maybe it is, give me some positives that have happened for you since you left and kind of were hoping to go from here?
Sarah Edmondson 31:36
Sure. Well, I think probably the thing that's most positive is that I, I know who I am. Yeah, I know what I think I know. Yeah, I know, I know what I made up, I know what my character is. And that's really truly the irony of it. Because Keith used to always say that, and I say this in a lot of my interviews, character is not character until it's tested, you can say I'm the kind of person who would XYZ but until you have that, that opportunity, you don't know, it's all theoretical. I have a practical experience that I've gone through with traumas. And it's been awful in many ways, but I've come out the other side, strong AF. And I know that I can handle it, like, I feel like I can handle anything really, like when you're in trauma, when you're in the darkest of the dark, there's no, it's really hard to see the light. And the best part is now I get to be light for other people and, and shine that on their situation and say, if you can get through this, you will get through this, you just need some tools, you need some resources, you don't have to pay for them. You know, I mean, you can with therapy, but a lot of the things are out there on the internet and through support groups. And I just feel like that's a really positive outcome that it was never expecting. And then I can, you know, we would never would have met them.
Molly Dare 32:43
Yeah, absolutely. And I that is such a great thing. And I want people to know that that you become a voice you become a light for so many others. And and you can do good with what you've been through and not to hide in shame. But to get out there and share your story and to be vulnerable. And I know that's incredibly difficult. So I can I'm so appreciative of you sharing it, because I know it's not easy to sit through and again and feel it. And I'm sure now that you have your own children, it puts it in perspective, they're too young, to obviously know what what you're going through now. But I'm sure when they get older and they they read your book and see what you've gone through. They will be so proud of so of their mother in what she did, and the voice she gave to so many, and hopefully will recognize themselves if they ever find themselves in the path of a narcissist or you know, let's hope not that they will recognize it right away. So what made you decide to do this documentary, and what was kind of the process of the whole production
Sarah Edmondson 33:45
It was a very unusual production. It happened organically starting with us waking up and because Marks a filmmaker, we were used to mark filming everything anyway, because that's what happened. And him he being a filmmaker. And as we were starting to unwind, he's like, we need to document this. And he just he there's someone in our community who's a film, you know, a camera guy, and they set up a camera and ask questions and it just sort of talked. I think that there's some footage from that in I don't know what episode it is where I'm wearing like a black tank top and my hair is in a bun and I look really angry. Right? That's that was right at the beginning. And I was like, just like fuming also sitting right here where all the magic happens. And then partly we were filming it because we knew that they were gonna come after us which they document what we were doing like that sealer where I'm handing back the notes. And I'm like, this is sex trafficking. I wasn't planning on saying that I was I was I had someone film me so I could prove that I gave everything everything back because
Molly Dare 34:38
So smart.
Sarah Edmondson 34:39
Yeah, I knew they were gonna say that I was stealing which they did. And they tried to get me arrested for that which you know, and that they failed. But then when I was there and the cameras on me, I just went off and it wasn't like oh, we're gonna put this in a scene. It's gonna be on HBO it wasn't like that. It was like we was gonna like cover our asses, document this stuff. Then it turned into like we have something and then the filmmakers who One of them was a former student, you know, shopped it and HBO gotten on board and the rest is history, but it was very organic.
Molly Dare 35:07
At the same time, you've now decided to write a book. You had a newborn, you're writing a book, you're going through all this
Sarah Edmondson 35:12
I'm crazy
Molly Dare 35:14
Crazy, but my hat's off to you because he we all try to juggle so many things, not as much as you did. So I just think that takes such courage. What was the process like of when you wrote that book was a cathartic? Was it healing? Did it trigger you more? You know, so many people have books within them? And I think they're afraid to put pen to paper or, you know, type on their keyboard because they're afraid of what that's going to make them feel and relive.
Sarah Edmondson 35:36
Yeah, it definitely was both. It was cathartic and triggering, I think the biggest triggers that were silly things like getting on a conference call, like we had so many conference calls and NXIVM, I can't even tell you when I got left and cleared my schedule is like 20 hours of weekly conference calls every week that I just had to be on, like the green call the orange call the executive call the commerce board, the goals lab, the code, like so many different things that to be on the phone for so just like getting onto a conference call with a bunch of people was like, like, what trigger my PTSD? I think deadlines were hard, because we have a lot of deadlines. Like, okay, your manuscript has to be in by this date. But you know, I had a co writer, this amazing, incredible co-writer, Kristine Gasbarre. And she was, you know, did the bulk of the heavy lifting in terms of the structure and formatting things. And then I would, parts of it were purely me like the poem that you mentioned. So those those things were cathartic. It was really, it was really cathartic for me the most to read the audible. So I went to the studio and like, read the whole thing start to finish took me five days, still nursing. But that was the first time I'd read it beginning to end. And I was I was thinking like, and I hadn't had that experience. I'm like, this is a crazy story. And for it was 42 at the time, 43. Now, like how many women in their 40s have, you know, worked with the FBI have been whistleblower in an organization where the leader is sent to prison and freed the sex slaves like unbelievable, unbelievable. And like, even to this day, I have like, I spoke to somebody who was part of the inner circle, and she was saying how hard it had been, when the news came out and let people were calling her a sex slave. And she's like, I'm not a sex slave. And I was like, Oh, my God, she had been there for 15 years, she was at his beck and call, she felt like she couldn't leave. She had to have sex with him and whoever else he wanted her to have sex with, like in a threesome, that, like, that's the definition of a sex slave. Like, that's what that is. You're not in a cage, you know, like, that's what that you were actually a sex slave, I'm sorry to tell you. And, you know, to expose that, like, the magnitude of that is just wild. So yeah, when I when I read the audible I was I felt like it especially the end it felt like it read like a bit bit of a crime in the thriller that was gonna happen. And I thought that was exciting. Like the first part, I read him like a boring classes. But I think I think the ends the best.
Molly Dare 37:47
I mean, the whole book from beginning to end is pretty riveting. It's so good, unbelievable, to think that it's real. And you're not reading, you know, a piece of fiction that this really happened. And speaking of your book, you wrote a poem, which I would love for you to read for everybody, which my favorite, which you told me that you wrote in kind of like one sitting, which is unbelievable to me.
Sarah Edmondson 38:08
Thank you for saying that. I did a creative writing class as part of my healing when I first got out. And then my mom who's a writer, She's incredible writer, and she's been writing for way longer than me and I want her to her to get published now. But yeah, we did this writing exercise. And they gave us the structure. The teacher gave us the structure to write in. And I wrote it. And then I submitted it for feedback. And she had some questions. And I was like, No, I like it just the way that it is. Because it captured for me what was going on for me at the time.
Molly Dare 38:36
Yeah, and I think it will resonate with a lot of people too. Okay.
Sarah Edmondson 38:40
The scar, it's fading now reminds me that he never owned me. There's silence erodes the memories of our friendship and leaves me naked. Where was I before I met you, floating and eager, too young to catch the flags. My heart, open and pure. I have love around my neck. Me too, their voices merged around me and held my hand so I could speak. Before I leave to heal, I plant barbed wire between us and wrap myself in cashmere sheets. I'm back, ready for the leaves to turn to start again.
Molly Dare 39:16
Thank you so much for for sharing that. And thank you so much for for joining us today. Your strength and courage, as I said, will inspire so many and we're looking forward to following your journey from where you go now. And where can people find you follow you that we can see what what happens next.
Sarah Edmondson 39:34
Thank you, Molly. I'm probably most active on Instagram. Sarah Edmondson, like son of Edmond .s.o.n. always forget that. I'm on Facebook and Twitter, but less, I'm getting better. It's just there's just so many things to do.
Molly Dare 39:47
Yeah, I know it can become overly consuming.
Sarah Edmondson 39:51
I also have on my website, sarahedmonson.com/resources. If anyone resonates with this and needs help. I posted some of my favorite therapists and my favorite books and videos. And things that I think can help people. And there is going to be an announcement soon about a collaborative movement similar to hashtag me too as hashtag I got out, huh, encouraging people to tell their stories and to not feel shame and to be lights. And so when that's in full full gear, I will be reaching out to you.
Molly Dare 40:18
Oh, fantastic. Oh, I yes, please let me know. And I will let everybody know where to get the resources into and to follow that as well. So thank you again, and it was a pleasure to speak with you today. I'm sure we'll have many more conversations ahead. And thank you so much for everyone for tuning in. See you next episode with another powerful story of bravery and overcoming.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of On Air with Molly Dare, you're supporting everything to me and to the guests who are sharing their personal story. The best way to support this podcast series is with a five star rating on iTunes. Writing a quick written review is the all the feels and I read every single one and it means so much. If you screenshot your review and send it to us, you will be entered into our monthly giveaway and who doesn't love free stuff. The best way for this podcast to grow is by word of mouth and I would love for you to tell a friend share on social media. tag me in your stories if there's an episode or guests that really hits home for you. If you're interested in learning more about what I do or want to receive my Mondays with Molly video series with insights on each episode, and my personal takeaways head to mollydare.com and you can sign up there. See you next episode and in the meanwhile, do something daring this week.
